Topic Title

I would like to see a ‘scale’ option for symbols, something like the ‘text scale’ option for text and dimensions. This would allow insertion of the symbol without having to enlarge or reduce it afterward. If there is already a way to do this, please let me know. Thanks.



-Redd

At risk of sounding obtuse, could you just create your symbols at different scales and insert them at enlargement "1"?
Kind of defeats the purpose of the enlarge command however???

Heinrich, do you know Gerald Cress? He is an Architect in Knoxville.
I went to school with him years back.

Hi Redd,

There already is an Enlargement factor when you insert the symbol. You can enlarge X and Y independently, as well as Z; or all three together.

I also like the idea of some sort of scale feature, similar to 'text scale', for inserting things like drawing markers or text-related items, as opposed to 'real' sized things like toilets or furniture. It would have to be something that could be changed on the fly, so that it is on for text stuff, off for 'real' stuff like toilets/etc.

At risk of sounding obtuse, could you just create your symbols at different scales and insert them at enlargement "1"?
Kind of defeats the purpose of the enlarge command however???

If you are suggesting having the same symbol saved at different sizes for different scales, I actually used to do that, but found that managing the symbols when something gets revised is way more work that way. Mostly, I now do use the 'enlarge' either when placing them or after they are inserted ... which actually works ok as is.

I assume that this is for symbols that need to "scale to plot scale" i.e. standard drawing annotation keys.

For this, I have made a set of symbols (updated with attribute text) and access them through a toolbar. The toolbar also has a set of buttons with the appropriate symbol enlargement setting for each commonly used plot scale. In use, I pick the correct plot scale button and then place the required symbols. Since the symbols contain attribute text, I am prompted for the correct text at the point of placement. This is a similar strategy as was employed by the Productivity Pack some time back.

The additional benefit of using attribute text in these symbols is that the data in them can be "harvested" by using the Extract Attributes option in the Symbol Browser. You need to think about what information you ultimately want to extract when you create the symbols in the first place.

Here's the enlargement section from my toolbar:

[SCALES]
DropDownCount=16
Hint=Choose plot scale
Icon=scale

Hint00=12" scale
Icon00=scale
A00=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^1^$^S1^1^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F1^¸^:^

Hint01=6" scale
Icon01=scale
A01=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^2^$^S1^2^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F2^¸^:^

Hint02=3" scale
Icon02=scale
A02=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^4^$^S1^4^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F3^¸^:^

Hint03=2" scale
Icon03=scale
A03=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^6^$^S1^6^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F4^¸^:^

Hint04=1 1/2" scale
Icon04=scale
A04=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^8^$^S1^8^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F5^¸^:^

Hint05=1" scale
Icon05=scale
A05=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^12^$^S1^12^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F6^¸^:^

Hint06=3/4" scale
Icon06=scale
A06=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^16^$^S1^16^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F7^¸^:^

Hint07=1/2" scale
Icon07=scale
A07=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^24^$^S1^24^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F8^¸^:^

Hint08=3/8" scale
Icon08=scale
A08=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^32^$^S1^32^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F9^¸^:^

Hint09=1/4" scale
Icon09=scale
A09=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^48^$^S1^48^$^S0^:^S5^F4^F0^¸^:^

Hint10=3/16" scale
Icon10=scale
A10=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^64^$^S1^64^$^S0^:^S5^F4^S1^¸^:^

Hint11=1/8" scale
Icon11=scale
A11=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^96^$^S1^96^$^S0^:^S5^F4^S2^¸^:^

Hint12=3/32" scale
Icon12=scale
A12=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^128^$^S1^128^$^S0^:^S5^F4^S3^¸^:^

Hint13=1/16" scale
Icon13=scale
A13=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^192^$^S1^192^$^S0^:^S5^F4^S4^¸^:^

Hint14=1:20 scale
Icon14=scale
A14=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^240^$^S1^240^$^S0^¸^:^

Hint15=1:40 scale
Icon15=scale
A15=^·^;^¿^Á^;^"^c:\program files\datacad\symbols\4keysxi\ARR_UN.dsf^$^F4^480^$^S1^480^$^S0^¸^:^

I also like the idea of some sort of scale feature, similar to 'text scale', for inserting things like drawing markers or text-related items, as opposed to 'real' sized things like toilets or furniture. It would have to be something that could be changed on the fly, so that it is on for text stuff, off for 'real' stuff like toilets/etc.

That's what I'm talkin' 'bout!

At risk of sounding obtuse, could you just create your symbols at different scales and insert them at enlargement "1"?

I have actually already done this on a few symbols (stamps, title blocks, etc...), but I need to use an odd one every so often, it would be handy to just handy to have it auto scale.
It’s really not that big of a deal, I just happened to run into that situation this morning and thought this feature would be handy.

Heinrich, do you know Gerald Cress? He is an Architect in Knoxville. I went to school with him years back.

We haven’t done much business in or around KnoxVagas, we’re rather small so we stick to fairly local jobs.


-Redd

...I also like the idea of some sort of scale feature, similar to 'text scale', for inserting things like drawing markers or text-related items, as opposed to 'real' sized things like toilets or furniture. It would have to be something that could be changed on the fly, so that it is on for text stuff, off for 'real' stuff like toilets/etc.

Hello Redd,

This is a great suggestion. Really great. You and Steve have touched the point: "a text scale alike feature" on certain (by choice) symbols, that would allow an automatic enlargement for different plotting scales. A remark: we are not talking about real world objects, like a table or a chair. We are dealing with drawing markers or text-related elements.

And it additionally allows the management of 'text attributes' on this symbols, like in electric fixtures, for circuit splitting/reporting.

It could work this way: When you create the symbol, it is done with a plotting scale in mind, with the drawing set at that moment, and when you enter it at the drawing, it would identify the plotting scale to make the required enlargement.

Despite the smart solution provided by Phil Hart, your approach could solve everything.

We could be heading another smart object, like our wish.

Thanks. And hope Dave & Mark are reading this.
Miguel

Hi Miguel.

It could work this way: When you create the symbol, it is done with a plotting scale in mind, with the drawing set at that moment, and when you enter it at the drawing, it would identify the plotting scale to make the required enlargement.

We need to remember that the symbols might be used for MANY plotting scales, so I'm not really sure what you mean by having "a plotting scale in mind"......

...so I'm not really sure what you mean by having "a plotting scale in mind"......

Hello Steve,

When you create an "interruptor" symbol (or an outlet) for an electric project you create a drawing for that symbol with your preferred size, for using it in the scale you imagine will use it most times (which is in your 'mind').
Why ? because the project will require it always with the same 'real world' size whatever the scale you decide to print that drawing sheet.
This kind of symbol objects don't behave as the real world objects does, like a chair or a table, which are designed at the same drawing scale (1:1) and enlarge with the building.

Imagine that in the outlet you put a text attribute, for identifying the circuit it belongs, whose size should be a specific one.
This text too should always be with a specific size, independently of the plotting scale.

So, the 'smart' approach would be that when you create that symbol you would 'attach' a "plotting scale" for that object, and attribute, with 'that' size.

As an example: I use ordinarily plotting 1:50 on 'metric-DIN' which is near your 1/4". I would create the symbol expecting for plotting it at the 1:50 scale. If for any reason, the project should be plotted at a half scale (1:100, or your 1/8") it would be promptly scaled by twice. Because it should keep the same size after plotting.

If you have already finished your project, but, later for any reason you must change the plotting scale of that same project, you could be allowed to 'redefine' those symbols to the new plotting scale, for providing the same text and symbol sizes for this new plotting scale.

Today we have no other option then to scale-by-twice each symbol, adjusting each one's enlargement center, and resetting each symbol position, for preventing overlapping on other informations on the drawing sheet.

Did you catch it ?

That is the great idea I could see from Redd's suggestion!

But, this doesn't end here. You got also the paper borders drawing, which follows a public standard, and can contain any drawing at any scale, but must be the same size, whatever its contents. I'd like to detail it any more.

I'm sure we can be in front of a big shift for managing informations inside DataCAD's database.

Thanks,
Miguel

Hi Miguel.

So, the 'smart' approach would be that when you create that symbol you would 'attach' a "plotting scale" for that object, and attribute, with 'that' size.

Ok ... I guess the text scale calculations could do all the math in going from the 'attached plotting scale' to the actual plotting scale, but it seems there would be less math involved in going simply from real size to plot scale. In other words, always draw your marker-type symbols the actual size you want them to plot, then save them off. This is actually what I do now ... the factoring is much easier to go from real size to 1/8"=1'-0" (12x8=96), than to go from, say 3/4"=1'-0" to 1/8"=1'-0" (whatever that one is). If you want a marker to be 3/8" in diameter, just draw it 3/8" in diameter, instead of (?)" in diameter at 'x' scale.

If you have already finished your project, but, later for any reason you must change the plotting scale of that same project, you could be allowed to 'redefine' those symbols to the new plotting scale, for providing the same text and symbol sizes for this new plotting scale.

Today we have no other option then to scale-by-twice each symbol, adjusting each one's enlargement center, and resetting each symbol position, for preventing overlapping on other informations on the drawing sheet.

There will ALWAYS be problems with information overlapping each other when going from a sheet set up for one scale, then changing to another scale later.

[Edit: ...There will always be problems with things overlapping when going from a larger scale to a smaller scale. -->Never say 'ALWAYS', never say 'NEVER'.]

Hello Steve,

I'm afraid have not understand your point. In your first message you said:

I also like the idea of some sort of scale feature, similar to 'text scale', for inserting things like drawing markers or text-related items, as opposed to 'real' sized things like toilets or furniture. It would have to be something that could be changed on the fly, so that it is on for text stuff, off for 'real' stuff like toilets/etc.

But, now you say:

...the factoring is much easier to go from real size to 1/8"=1'-0" (12x8=96), than to go from, say 3/4"=1'-0" to 1/8"=1'-0" (whatever that one is). If you want a marker to be 3/8" in diameter, just draw it 3/8" in diameter, instead of (?)" in diameter at 'x' scale.

Perhaps I'm not being able to get the point.
My understanding of the real enhancement is that if we could have some special symbols that do understand its 'plotting scale', working pretty much like the 'Text-Scale' feature does, we could have this on-the-fly change in the size of this objects.
Besides this, the text attribute would fit exactely as we expect.

Text Scale does not require calculus at all. This is the target I'd like to be heading.

Thanks,
Miguel

Hi Miguel.

I'm not trying to argue with you.

Yes, I said that some sort of scale feature, similar to 'text scale' would be good. Like in 'text scale', you're always thinking real-world, what-is-on-paper sizes ... 1/8" text is 1/8" ... 1/4" text is 1/4" ... as opposed to 1/8" text is 1/8" ...at a plot scale of 1:50. In 'text scale', there is nowhere that you have to enter any additional 'plot scale' information, other than setting the scale for the file in general.

My thought was 'why not just draw EVERYTHING the size you want it' ... if you want 3/8" markers, draw 3/8" markers, if you want 2'-0"x2'-0" end tables, draw 2'-0"x2'-0" end tables -- "K.I.S.S." ...Then when it is inserted from the symbol browser, you click a button that toggles something like 'Real World' or 'Auto Factor'.

I think we are actually on the same track here ... just a bit of confusion in the communication.

Perhaps this could be a new attribute of the symbol when you define it. In the box where you fill out the symbol name etc. Add a check box for whether the symbol should adjust according to the plot scale or not.

When you create a new notation tag symbol you would check the box, and when you create a new table symbol you would leave the box blank.

Of course the setting has to be adjustable after the symbol is created by use of the edit fields option.

Sorry Steve. It's not my intention too. I must adjust my emphasis and avoid some language traps.

...My thought was 'why not just draw EVERYTHING the size you want it' ... if you want 3/8" markers, draw 3/8" markers, if you want 2'-0"x2'-0" end tables, draw 2'-0"x2'-0" end tables -- "K.I.S.S." ...Then when it is inserted from the symbol browser, you click a button that toggles something like 'Real World' or 'Auto Factor'.

I agree with you. If we could get a toggle for setting the symbol as 'real world' or 'scale adjusted' (or Auto factor) we can be with the right solution.

Perhaps this could be a new attribute of the symbol when you define it. In the box where you fill out the symbol name etc. Add a check box for whether the symbol should adjust according to the plot scale or not.

So this is it.

...Of course the setting has to be adjustable after the symbol is created by use of the edit fields option.

I believe that the 'text-scale' behavior could lead to a cleaner result, for global adjustements.

Thanks,
Miguel

Perhaps this could be a new attribute of the symbol when you define it. In the box where you fill out the symbol name etc. Add a check box for whether the symbol should adjust according to the plot scale or not.

I believe that the 'text-scale' behavior could lead to a cleaner result, for global adjustements.

This is exactly what I'm getting at.
Things like elec. symbols we need to have at a certain size, no matter the scale of the drawing. In our practice we do a lot of different drawing scales (even within the same project [blown-up kitchen, classroom, bathroom, etc…drawings all at varying scales]) so to have to save 4 or 5 ‘copies’ of the same symbol at different scales and then to have to browse through them is rather unproductive. That is why I have just learned to adjust them accordingly after I insert them into the drawing. An auto-scaling feature would solve this. IMHO.


-Redd