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#12344 by Neil Blanchard
Fri Jun 23, 2006 10:50 pm
Greetings All,

Here's my notes from the DataCAD 12 Alpha Preview portion of the DBUG meeting last night.

Mark Madura demonstrated DataCAD v12 Alpha 49, though the latest is A50. There are a lot of new symbols; mainly 3D office and plumbing symbols; residential kitchen and bath fixtures, and office furniture AND American flags, too.. They are based on actual models direct from the manufacturers, but they have been simplified to reduce the number of polygons and cleaned up. Eventually they may have scale or view dependent symbols, that change the detail levels, depending on how you are viewing them. They have rendering info built in, so they will work right away. Also, things have been nested, so sinks are available with or without the faucet, for example.

Mark mentioned a Cheap Trick at this point: you can stack multiple symbols! If you select several in a row in the SB, then you can place them in reverse order by placing the last one you selected (as many times as you want) and then right click once, then place the next symbol, then right click once, then place a symbol...

Another Textures method to get interesting metallic surfaces in a model, that change as you navigate: use a metal texture as reflection map.

:arrow: Smart Walls!! They clean in 2D as you draw, and when you erase them, they also clean up afterwards. There are several new concepts, like linked or unlinked walls; which means that they can act as one entity (linked). This can be toggled back and forth after the fact, so you can link or unlink walls as needed. Mark showed two linked walls; one is a zigzag wall, and it is over straight wall. When he moved either of the walls and they "reclean" themselves after each move.

There are no limits to the number of walls at intersections. The “smart walls” appear with snapping points at the places where you snapped; so at the centerline, or at one of the faces. Internally in the program's database, the walls are nodes and edges, and then the attributes like the linetypes and the width of the wall, etc. are also editable.

Control-Right Click on them brings up the Properties Dialog, to change the thickness, etc., and the walls change based on the way they are created (side or center). The plane that you drew it by defines the “anchor plane.” There are snap points visible at the nodes of the wall, as I mentioned before.

Multi-line walls will be view/scale dependent in how they appear. So, at smaller scales, a simpler view won't muddy the plot, but zoom in, and more detail is shown. Again, walls can be altered after they are drawn, and the intersection with other walls get adjusted and cleaned up automatically.

Two more new concepts are that walls will have Priority number, so you can keep some walls from cleaning to other walls. A Priority 1 wall might be a CMU fire wall, and if a Priority 2 framed wall intersects with it, it would not clean, so it would appear correctly on the 2D plan.

The other new concept is Levels. These are more or less the building stories, but you could have walls on the same level, that would have different Z values (think: rooms with different heights, or a split level plan). So, you could edit stacked plans, and the walls on different levels would not clean to each other.

There are a lot of permutations that have to be considered with these “smart entities”!

:arrow: Smart Door!! The Control-Right Click properties dialog can be used to change the door type. Units can be fixed or adjustable, which means you can “lock” it to a specific size, or if you stretch one jamb, the door also changes to match. These are drawn just like we draw doors now, but it also shows up as a 3D door, with a knob, and casing trim when you switch to a non-Ortho view.

:arrow: Smart Window!! These can have better 2D detail control than we have now. A door outsill for example, or a window sash. Casements can be shown open or closed, and all this is adjustable via the Properties dialog. Sill and head heights at based on the relative Z values of the wall that they are being placed into, so even if you are on the 5th floor of a building, you just have to think about the sill height above the floor; not the total Z height above the Z base, if that makes sense.

DataCAD will let you “break the rules”, and doing so won't make it break. For example, Mark drew an pair of crossing walls, then a window in one of the four wall segments. He then moved the window "through" a wall intersection! The context of this might make perfect sense for what you are drawing (say the window is to be demoed, or something may actually be built that way?). If you want to do something like this, it won't break the program.

The overall approach seems to be one of additive tools [my term!]. We start with the basics: smart walls, doors, windows, roofs, floors, and maybe others, too – and later on other things are added. Like maybe structural elements, trim and finishes; that extend from the basics. We will be able to generate elevations, sections, details, etc. (maybe partition type drawings?), from the basic building model, and we can then add the required 2D entities to show things on drawings in the fashion that we do now. You can use the 3D, but you don't have to. The mechanics of drawing in 2D will be streamlined, and it also does 3D at the same time. Mark also mentioned that we will be better able to edit in a 3D view.
Last edited by Neil Blanchard on Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#12347 by Paul Nida
Fri Jun 23, 2006 11:17 pm
Once again, thanks a lot Neil for your report. It all sounds very interesting and I look forward to actually seeing it in the program. Was there any further word about when beta testing might start?
#12348 by MtnArch
Sat Jun 24, 2006 12:29 am
Paul Nida wrote:Was there any further word about when beta testing might start?


Paul -

You took the words right out of my mouth!

I agree with Paul - thanks, Neil, for being the eyes and ears for those of us who cannot attend these meetings!

(drool, drool ...) :)
#12355 by Neil Blanchard
Sat Jun 24, 2006 7:58 am
Hi Alan & Paul,

Mark said that when they get these smart elements into better working order, beta testing will start. For instance, in the A49, using Copy/Entity on a smart window/door would not work. As the builds move along, sometimes things get broken and need to be fixed again. They are pretty happy with the way the smart elements are working, and they just need to get everything up to speed.

BTW, in the example I mentioned above, when the smart window is moved (by Entity) it cleans after each move, and it essentially looks like you are stretching it.
#12357 by Paul Nida
Sat Jun 24, 2006 8:41 am
Understood Neil, that is why we sometimes get 2 or 3 new betas on the same day. I was just curious as to whether or not they gave any indication as to how much longer they thought it would take to move from alpha to beta. I am sure all of that is still up in the air but I wondered if they tought they were getting close or if it is still 2 or 3 months away.
#12392 by Neil Blanchard
Mon Jun 26, 2006 2:34 pm
Greetings,

Ah, I forgot to mention, that the Smart Walls button is an addition to the Architect menu, and the current Walls menus are still there. So, you can still draw things as we have. Also, if you only use the 2D aspects of the new Smart Walls, that's also possible. They are trying to make the Smart Walls useful for 2D and for 3D at the same time.

I didn't like ZAC either, on balance; and I'm not sure if BIM (whatever is actually meant by that term) is necessarily a good thing. I do think that there could be lots of benefits of using 3D, that would directly affect the way we use DataCAD right now. Since we have to work out the relationships of all the elements of a building -- and a building is a 3D thing, after all; if our computers can use their strengths to utilize 3D information to help us work out these things more easily, then you don't have to need to do renderings to see the benefits of 3D.

I have confidence that if anybody can make "smart tools" that still allow us to fit the use of CADD to how we want/need to work -- it'll be the folks at DataCAD! Whether or not the resulting program would be classified as "BIM", or whether it is different from other "BIM" programs, I don't know.

As I indicated in my posted notes, I think that Mark, Dave, Devinder, and all the others there at DataCAD have gotten an excellent start -- and more importantly: they will depend on the feedback from us, their users via the DBUG forum, this DataCAD online forum, and the beta testers, to get things developed and functioning well in the real world, and the results may or may not be glitzy, and they may or may not be considered to be "BIM". It is more likely to be a more powerful extension of the DataCAD program that we all know, and use to earn our livings with!

So, having said all that (whew!), what do you all think about what we've seen so far -- or what questions do you have about it?
#12396 by joshhuggins
Mon Jun 26, 2006 4:13 pm
Was there anything mentioned about DWG exporting and what the smart entities will become? We have to get video or at least some audio capture from these meetings for the rest of us to digest.
#12400 by Paul Nida
Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:33 pm
Neil Blanchard wrote:Greetings,

Ah, I forgot to mention, that the Smart Walls button is an addition to the Architect menu, and the current Walls menus are still there. So, you can still draw things as we have. Also, if you only use the 2D aspects of the new Smart Walls, that's also possible. They are trying to make the Smart Walls useful for 2D and for 3D at the same time.


I am glad they made the Smart Walls as an addition instead of a replacement. That allows us to continue to use the existing walls command as we always have. I use it for a lot more than just drawing walls in plan since it is basically just parallel lines.

I didn't like ZAC either, on balance; and I'm not sure if BIM (whatever is actually meant by that term) is necessarily a good thing. I do think that there could be lots of benefits of using 3D, that would directly affect the way we use DataCAD right now. Since we have to work out the relationships of all the elements of a building -- and a building is a 3D thing, after all; if our computers can use their strengths to utilize 3D information to help us work out these things more easily, then you don't have to need to do renderings to see the benefits of 3D.


I wasn't too crazy about ZAC either. The definition of BIM seems to depend on whom you are talking to at the time. Much of what I have read about BIM I don't care about. And I don't want smart objects and improved 3d just for rendering, although improvement in this area would be a plus. What I really want it for is drawing coordination. Really project coordination if you add specs and schedules into the mix. I want the plans, elevations, sections, schedules and even specs linked so that when changed in one place it is changed everywhere. That way I don't have to spend so much time coordinating drawings.

I am not saying that this all has to be in v12 or that v12 has to be a "finished" product. But it does need to be moving in that direction.

I have confidence that if anybody can make "smart tools" that still allow us to fit the use of CADD to how we want/need to work -- it'll be the folks at DataCAD! Whether or not the resulting program would be classified as "BIM", or whether it is different from other "BIM" programs, I don't know.


I really hope you are right. I feel like I have a lot invested in Datacad in both time and money through upgrades, and I don't want to think that that investment is wasted.


As I indicated in my posted notes, I think that Mark, Dave, Devinder, and all the others there at DataCAD have gotten an excellent start -- and more importantly: they will depend on the feedback from us, their users via the DBUG forum, this DataCAD online forum, and the beta testers, to get things developed and functioning well in the real world, and the results may or may not be glitzy, and they may or may not be considered to be "BIM". It is more likely to be a more powerful extension of the DataCAD program that we all know, and use to earn our livings with!

So, having said all that (whew!), what do you all think about what we've seen so far -- or what questions do you have about it?


Unfortunately Neil, only you and the other members of DBUG have actually "seen" it. The rest of us just have what you have written to go by. I find it very difficult to comment on something I have never seen. And I am not even confident in what questions I should be asking. For now I am just waiting, as patiently as I can, until I can see and use it for myself before I make too many comments or ask very many questions.

Again I would like to thank you for your reports. Without them the rest of us would still be completely in the dark with no clue as to what was being done. You, Evan through cheap tricks and Mike (although he hasn't posted on this meeting) are the eyes and ears for the rest of us. I agree with Josh that it would be really nice to get some sort of video of these meetings.
#12412 by RPadgett
Tue Jun 27, 2006 10:49 am
Do the smart doors/windows allow for any kind of automatic schedules?
#12416 by Greg Blandin
Tue Jun 27, 2006 12:55 pm
RPadgett wrote:Do the smart doors/windows allow for any kind of automatic schedules?


I would believe this is part of the reason for making smart windows and doors. Not just so they open when you get close and make that cool whooshing sounds or to say have a pleasent day. Ooops..I went all THGTTG and Star Trek on ya all!
#12419 by joshhuggins
Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:18 pm
Greg Blandin wrote:Ooops..I went all THGTTG and Star Trek on ya all!
I'm sure your in good nerd company here :wink:
#12442 by Vmorris1
Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:20 am
Hello Neil,

Thanks for the update. Was there any discussions on how these new tools would work with Sketchup? :P
#12444 by Sinha
Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:41 am
Hi Neil,
Any word on Custom "Wall Styles" or Creating Multiple Lines and not limited to 4 only?
#12559 by Neil Blanchard
Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:06 pm
Hi Sinha,

Sinha wrote:Any word on Custom "Wall Styles" or Creating Multiple Lines and not limited to 4 only?


Yes, the smart walls can generate more than 4 lines. And on a related point, I don't know if we will be able to create smart walls by a custom plane; not just the faces or the centerline -- I'll try to remember to ask at next week's DBUG meeting! I'm hosting it, on Thursday July 13th -- a week from tomorrow.
#12575 by Dick Eades
Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:05 pm
Ooops..I went all THGTTG and Star Trek on ya all!


I always thought THGTTG was expressed as H2G2.

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