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#69855 by Neil Blanchard
Fri Sep 30, 2016 8:51 am
We are finding Knockouts (on ParaText over hatches) to be frustratingly inconsistent. They work, until they don't. Then after a lot of poking and prodding - they work again, and then after switching GTV's - they stop working again. Do knockouts have to be "in front" of something to work - or do they just work?

The help manual mentions something about toggling on/of knockout display - where is this done?

Another possible related issue is the WYSIWYG toggle in the Plotter menu - how is that invoked? I have never been clear on this.
#69856 by joshhuggins
Fri Sep 30, 2016 12:59 pm
To toggle the display of knockouts on, it's under View, Knockouts, KnockoutDisplay. If you want to simply knockout everything and you will not be sending the files to anyone for DWG work, you could turn off Compatibility Mode, but I would not recommend it as you loose a lot of functionality that way. It's worth getting it setup to work how you want with Compatibility Mode On. I made a little video on knockouts that might help. They definitely work as they should, there is just about 3 different ways you can set things up depending on how you want to use them and what your current setup for display and printing is. Are you using WYSIWYG for printing already? We use pen table ordering for our printer output so we setup pen tables with a color called knockout. Then that color is set to pen 11 in this example so it knocks out pens 1-10 when printed. Pens 1-10 are our legacy colors and make up the core our our linework. Then if there is anything we want to always print over the knockouts we set it to one of the colors set to pens 12-16.

Then for display ordering, we usually use normal layer display ordering to set the knockouts on an appropriate layer, usually the last layer, or active layer to be loaded for a GTV. Then we use Move to Front/Back to get the knockouts where they need to be. If you setup symbols with the knockouts setup with their layers properly ordered it helps alot. If you are using WYSIWYG for printing, I would guess that your printed output would be determined by the GTV/MSP layer display ordering but I'm not sure. It's basily the same thing as getting bitmap images to display in the correct order.
#69857 by David Porter
Fri Sep 30, 2016 1:04 pm
I found that is what I had to do with Ptext over a hatch pattern yesterday. Wouldn't KO the hatch pattern on a plot with anything I tinkered with for layer order or front and back settings. But, the KO correctly removed the hatch on the screen. Finally, turned off Compatibility Mode and it then plotted with the hatch getting KO'd on the plot
#70018 by Neil Blanchard
Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:48 pm
Thanks Josh - if it only was that easy. We added the polyline, and it works on the first instance - we had to move the layer to the bottom of the list, in order to have it show right.

We then go to the next GTV, which has the same symbol - and it doesn't show right, either on the screen or in the plot preview. In fact, the first shows right on the screen, and in the MSP Sheet view - BUT NOT on the Preview ... The second instance doesn't show right anywhere.
#70028 by joshhuggins
Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:08 pm
O.K. cool pen table it is. (glad because that what I am familiar with the most :))

So working only on the printed output side of things now, is the knockout entity a color that is mapped to a pen that will draw after the entities you want knocked out?

One other thing that could be related but I am not sure as I have not tested to see if knockouts are classified as fills, is in the Pen Table, do you have Bitmaps and Fills set to print In Order? Could ya post a screenshot of your pen table and the entities in question. I know we can get this worked out and man you'll love it once it's going! Sooo nice!

Neil Blanchard wrote:How does one even turn on WYSIWYG?
In the print settings menu, if you toggle F9 Pen Sort off, then S6 WYSIWYG becomes available.
#70040 by Neil Blanchard
Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:49 pm
Josh, I will have to refer to this thread to remind myself how this stuff works.

PenSort means that Pens are printing in order 0 to 15, right?

I am confused by some of this: Knockouts are invisible but they cover up stuff "behind" them - AND they have a "color" so if you use a non-printing color (which is what you would use!), then they work on the screen - but not on the paper.

We use Pen 0 - which is the default non-printing Pen - and so the invisible thing is in fact invisible on the paper.
#70044 by joshhuggins
Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:52 pm
Neil Blanchard wrote:PenSort means that Pens are printing in order 0 to 15, right?
Yes, except I would say Pens 1-15 print in order. Anything drawn in Pen 0 will not get output to the printer at all. You want to make sure you knockouts are NOT set to a color mapped to Pen 0.

Neil Blanchard wrote:Knockouts are invisible (They can be but don't have to be. I'll touch on this in the video) They but they cover up stuff "behind" below them - AND they have a "color" so if you use a non-printing color (which is what you would use!), then they work on the screen - but not on the paper.
OK I think I see where you might be getting things confused now. Think about knockouts like whiteout tape. You want them to be visible. When knockouts "print" they "print" a white color that covers everything below them. What is below them is determined by the Pen Table. So if you have a polyline knockout and it is a color that is mapped to Pen 15, it is going to knockout everything that is a color that is mapped to Pens 1-14.

If your knockout is a color that is mapped to Pen 8, then it will knockout all entities that are colors that are mapped to Pens 1-7. Any entities that are colors mapped to Pens 9-16 will display on top of the knockout with a color mapped to Pen 8. Does that make sense?

Let me know if this first part makes sense, and what you think so far. I have to get going to a cubscout camping trip right now but when I get back later this weekend and will try to respond with a video as I think a visual might help as well.
#70045 by David A. Giesselman
Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:27 pm
And here's where WYSIWYG comes into play. If it looks correct on screen when you save your GTV/MSP detail, it should print that way too.

#70299 by Roger D
Tue Nov 29, 2016 2:05 pm
It should. Are you sure the dimension is on a layer that is after the item being KO'd?

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