Topic Title

This is the heart of how I use DataCAD. I use both MSP and XRef's -- I don't think that one replaces the other, nor could I get along without one or the other. Even if you only set up one MSP sheet in each file, and there is only one scale on that sheet; I still think that it is well worth doing!

You can easily do a Check Plot, and you can use Batch Plot to do multiple copies at once.

Here's the text of a DBUG meeting handout that I presented in September, with some additional notes to expand on the MSP use.

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"Faux 3D"
(Orthographic Projection Taken Into 3 Dimensions)

In a nutshell, what I am going to talk about is the methods that I use to draw and coordinate a building, so that it is accurate in all dimensions. Hopefully, this is the function that any parametric 3D tools in a future version of DataCAD 11 will take on! But for now, we can use stacked plans and XRef's, and well disciplined drafting.

Quick Glossary:
Go To View (aka GTV) = An absolutely essential part of DataCAD especially when you are using a lot of XRef's.

XRef = external reference file which uses a GTV from one file, in another; with or without an X-Clip Cube and/or highlighting.

Self XRef = self-referencing XRef -- which is obviously an oxymoron, but it works in much the same way as an XRef.

Native entities = entities that are drawn in the file -- everything except the XRef's or the self-XRef.

Highlighting = is an option for each XRef to change either all the lines to one type and/or all the lines to one color; which you can use to wash or ghost the XRef.

X-Clip Cube (aka X-Clip or XCC) = a non-plotting 3-dimensional rectangular box, that excludes the display of, and plotting of, all the parts of the XRef that are outside of the box. These can show their boundaries on the screen, but the edges won't plot.

Control-Right Click (on an XRef) = is an indispensable menu of tools for working with XRef's.

MultiScale plotting (aka MSP) = another indispensable part of DataCAD, that allows you to efficiently plot everything that you need to produce a set of CD's -- and only draw any one thing once! You can always draw at full size, always use associative dims, and if you use Text Scale (which also works great for dim's) and GTV's now save the current plot scale -- MSP is an easy and wonderful thing!

The general list of drawings that I tend to use:

Border.AEC = all common border information like project title, and GTV's for all dates. I always draw this at full size, and then use it as an XRef in all the other files, and MSP to plot at the scale you need for each drawing. You only need one border for all scales, and MSP makes it possible!

ExistingConditions.AEC = an accurate and updatable drawing of existing plans. I use an XRef of the Border.AEC with additional layers for as many of the individual sheets that you need, and I use MSP to lay them out.

FloorPlans.AEC = contains all the construction floor plans (using MSP for each sheet), with XRef's of Border.AEC with native title information, and:

ExistingConditions.AEC -- the latter used with highlighting for the demolition plans.

Structural-Electrical = Uses highlighted XRef's of the FloorPlans.AEC, with native entities for information specific to each. Also uses the Border.AEC with native title information. Both these drawings require the same sort of information, so I try to make the most of the overlap.

Sections-Details.AEC = Uses plan XRef's for reference only, so you can accurately extend the the X and Y planes (as appropriate) into the Z plane. Details are done within this file, with self-XRef's using XCC's.

Elevations.AEC = this is the culmination drawing, where the plans are meshed with the sections, and where you can cross-check everything against the other things -- the roof plan being the most important of these. I use lots of XRef's for reference in this file: the floorplans and the sections in particular -- this is where the "Faux 3D" idea comes to fruition.

InteriorElevations.AEC = Uses XRef's of plans and sections for reference to generate the required interior elevations.

Neil,
I recently joined an office that uses DataCAD. Previously I was in an office that used ARRIS and more recently AutoCAD. I have a basic understanding of Xref's and MSP and your explanation of how you draw and coordinate a building is helpful.

By creating Border.AEC and Xref it into other drawings makes it simple to modify the date, etc. My big question is - How do you keep track of what sheets are in what files?

In AutoCAD, we set up sheets - Xref'd in the border and any drawings needed for a particular sheet. All sheets were in the same file so it was easy to see how many there were, and to plot all drawings for one project from one spot. I tried to do a similar thing with DataCAD but have not been happy with results. In FloorPlans.AEC for example, I would create several Go To Views (I really like them). However if I then reference this drawing into another, GTV's are inactive. Am I missing something? Is there an easier way to accomplish this?
Thanks for your help.
Bev

Shot in the dark...

YOu can still use the GTV, but you need use them through the xREF manager (ctrl+R).

then you can select your GTV and away you go.

Hello Bev:

By creating Border.AEC and Xref it into other drawings makes it simple to modify the date, etc. My big question is - How do you keep track of what sheets are in what files?

In AutoCAD, we set up sheets - Xref'd in the border and any drawings needed for a particular sheet. All sheets were in the same file so it was easy to see how many there were, and to plot all drawings for one project from one spot. I tried to do a similar thing with DataCAD but have not been happy with results. In FloorPlans.AEC for example, I would create several Go To Views (I really like them). However if I then reference this drawing into another, GTV's are inactive. Am I missing something? Is there an easier way to accomplish this?

Okay, there are (as usual) several ways to go about this. I have used a system that seems to be very similar to what you mention: all the files are XRef'd into a sort of inverted "tree", with a "master plot file" at the top. You then can do all the plotting from this one file; and obviously, you use MSP a lot, and therefore you can use Batch Plotting, too. This system has one advantage that is not entirely obvious: a project manager can look at this file and see progress (nearly in real time). The disadvantage is the loading time of this file can be pretty long; depending on many things.

OTOH, the Batch Plotting can work fine from "outside" the files: you start DataCAD but don't open any files. Then from the File/Batch Plot (or Control-B) dialog, you add the drawings you want to plot. The caveat is that this plots all the MSP sheets that are set up in each file, and you have to have the plotter set up correctly in each file. But it can work fine. (Though sheet order is still an issue.)

So, I usually use the Batch Plotting from within each file -- this way you can select the specific sheets that you want plotted, and you can check the set up, too. MSP and batch plotting (and also Check Plotting) go hand in hand.

Hello again:

I just posted a reply to a question on the DBUG Forum, that is apropos to this thread:

I am looking to use clip cube more extensively in MSP as a way of reducing the number of layers. Therefore, I would draw several details on the same grouping of layers with registration marks to create clip cubes for separting in MSP. Currently if 2d drafting I must go click 3d Menu-3d Views-Clip Cube- OnOff or New Cube. Then to get back to 2d drafting right click twice and select 2d Menu. I do not see short cut listed for clip cube in "Standard [Keyboard] Shortcuts" Is there a way to program sequences of repeated steps into a hot key? As always, input will be appreciated.

Well the method I would suggest will save you effort in drawing, but not necessarily save on the number of layers. I would use a self-XRef (which is kind of an oxymoronic name -- it should be called Internal Reference View, I think, or IReV for short?), if you want to keep the details in the same file as the main drawing, or you could use an XRef if you want the details to be in another drawing. The latter way would also allow you to draw all the details for plans and sections and/or elevations in one file.

Either way, you get to use an *X-Clip Cube*, which has one BIG advantage over the 3D Clip Cubes, and other smaller advantages. The big one is that you can draw *outside* the X-CC! This allows you to draw a detail in a standard way, and with full flexibility of locating notes, dims, and the title. I usually use four layers to draw a detail:

Layer one for the IReV/XRef
Layer two for additional lines to add detail
Layer three for text and dims
Layer four for hatch

The other advantages include one that will answer your original question: to get to the X-Clip Cube, as well as to manage the layers included in the XRef/IReV -- you just need to hold the Control key down and then Right-Click on the XRef/IReV, and this gets you into a very useful menu.

You can save each of these details as a GTV, and you can rotate them on the plot sheet if you need to. You do not have to redraft any of the "base" drawing -- if you modify the plan/section/elevation, then the XRef/IReV will be updated; either automatically when you open the drawing again, or you can manually Refresh them after saving the source file.

I also use XRef's and IReV's to show repeating and/or mirrored portions of plans and elevations, which also saves quite of bit of otherwise redundant drafting.

This is my goal: to only draw any one thing *just* *once*, and use every available tool in the best way possible to avoid redundancy. This not only saves time, but it helps immensely in coordination and updates and revisions.

Using GTV's, XRef's *and* MSP together seems to me, to be the way to fully flex all the most powerful tools in DataCAD! Now, if we get a 3D parametric virtual building at the core of this system, with associated drafting planes/GTV's; along the lines that I have suggested in the past -- this would a GIANT leap forward!

I do think that we need a real 3D tool at the core of DataCAD -- it would be so much better than any "faux" 3D method!

Greg,
From the XRef Mgr, when I select the GTV that I want, it only controls the layers that are on / off not the actual view. An example is that I draw all building sections on the same layers - it makes it easy to copy from one section to another. I create clip cubes for each section separately for placing in the sheet and also for viewing smaller portions of a project. When I Xref that file into another file, then select GTV for one section, the layers are on correctly, but I can't tell one clip cube from the next.

Also, we've been trying the X-Clip Cubes for wall sections, building off the building sections. When I Xref that file into another file, the select the GTV for one wall section, the background building section clip cube doesn't show up at all. If I turn the building section layer on in addition to the x-clip layer, all the building sections show up. We were also trying the X-Clip Cubes for an apartment building plan. Some of the typical units we're enlarging are right next to each other so this works great until I reference it into another file to plot from.

Maybe there just isn't a solution to this yet. Neil's way of creating the sheets in each separate drawing file seems to be the best way to work - but my question still wasn't answered - How do you keep track of what sheet is in what file? (Example A1, A2, A5, A7 in one; A3, A4, A6 in another . . . . .)

Also - Is there a way to label the Xreferenced files in Xref Mgr? When referencing the same file several times - the names look the same except for a (1) (2) (3) etc. at the end. When there's a dozen of those they're hard to keep track of. I saw that Ctrl+Right click on the reference goes to the right one, and that helps - but are there any other possibilities?
Bev

Hello Bev:

[snip] ...my question still wasn't answered - How do you keep track of what sheet is in what file? (Example A1, A2, A5, A7 in one; A3, A4, A6 in another . . . . .)

Also - Is there a way to label the Xreferenced files in Xref Mgr? When referencing the same file several times - the names look the same except for a (1) (2) (3) etc. at the end. When there's a dozen of those they're hard to keep track of. I saw that Ctrl+Right click on the reference goes to the right one, and that helps - but are there any other possibilities?

On the first question -- I guess you just have to know! The way we lay out sets, though, works out so the things would not be "out of order" as in your example. The plan file has A1, A2, A3, & A4, and the elevation file has A5 & A6, the section file has A7 & A8...details follow, and then structural and electrical. If you have to plot just one sheet, then you would have to know what it has *on* it, and then the MSP sheets arelabeled (though it would be great to have a longer name possible!), and if you have to plot the set, you just plot 'em all and then collate them back into order.

On the second question, it would be nice to name them and/or it would great to be able to see the name of layer that they are on in the RFM.