Topic Title

I know this is a DataCAD 16 topic forum, and I will assume that the readers know DataCAD, as well as other providers.

I am an original DataCAD subscriber from 1984, and know the original Microtecture founder, and DataCAD's Dave Giesselman. Since 1990, my firm shifted to AutoCAD/Softdesk and ArchiCAD. Now, after managing staff members for over 35 years, I have started a single-person firm, and want to do CAD again.

My specialty is high-end residential and historic preservation, with some light commercial. I am looking at Revit as well as DataCAD 16. Big difference in price, too.

The question I pose is to DataCAD 16 users...will I be satisfied with the level of detail that DataCAD provides that typically is found in classical/traditional style architecture? I know DataCAD is very user-friendly, but my clients are very discerning when it comes to plan detail, and often want realistic perspectives. At my former firm, we used ArchiCAD as the primary CAD software, though I found it complex and overpowering to use (I am 62).

Granted, the Revit price is about 5x the cost of DataCAD, but includes a number of built-in features...many of them that I might not use. But, will I be able to incorporate certain architectural design libraries, such as classical column models, into DataCAD; I know that my staff could with AutoCAD and ArchiCAD.

Please visit my website (GilpinArchitect.com) to see the types of residential projects that I have designed, should you wish to comment on this posting.

Thank you.

I can't speak for Revit, but you can get as detailed as you can imagine/want with Datacad. The detail of course needs to be created or imported from outside sources. For construction docs I would put Datacad against any system. If your looking for 3D it can be somewhat slower using Datacad alone than other systems, but with additional apps like Sketch Up and external rendering, I would say it's worth looking into that type of Datacad workflow with the cost comparison.

I will echo some of what Josh mentions - I have toyed a little bit with Revit and a good friend of mine is an Associate in a very large firm that has moved from Dcad to Acad to Revit. Revit is very powerful in that you can create a very detailed, very complicated model that - if all of your consultants use it too - can see where conflicts are and can resolve them prior to construction. But in reality, do YOU (as the architect) really need to provide that type of detail? From what I've seen and heard from my friend, to make Revit work you MUST invest in creating components/symbols/assemblies that encompass EVERY part of the building. If you can do that, it will do almost anything (and everything) you want it to do. For a single-person firm, I'm not sure you have the time (let alone the resources) to create everything you need.

Just my 2 cents worth ....

About five years ago, I began looking at Revit and Archicad from the position of needing to evaluate my future with BIM. I priced both and sort of locked up at the numbers. For a start, each would have been a fairly expensive investment even if they were given to me for free. That is because both required upgrades to 64 bit systems and my hardware that worked fine with 32 bit O.S. would have been marginal with the newer Windows.
Revit had a trial version. I tried that so that I could just see what was so very impressive about it. The trial version was absolutely useless. It would often lock up my entire system (a new 64 bit Win 7 HP) every thirty seconds or so. Sometimes without my ever having touched a key beyond that needed to open the tutorial. To describe it as buggy would be to gloss over its true worth. That obviously is not how the true product works, but it gives a good indication of how Autodesk views potential users. If they haven't bought the promise with cold hard cash, they won't be getting any Autolove.
I moved on to Archicad (which you have much more real life experience than I do at this point). I found that Archicad had a basic offering that would allow me to use in in the same way that the "Lite" type programs do for other big name offerings. I got a copy of that and went into the learning mode.
I found that Archicad was nearly enough like Revit regarding levels and views and menus that if a person is familiar with one, transition to the other would be quite easy.
In a way, I think that I might be unique in the amount of time that I have put into creating parametric drawing routines. Much of it is due to my inefficiency at programming, but a lot can be placed alongside my love of the efficiency that I see is inherent in DataCAD. I enjoy making those routines "do stuff." Yet, with every single one, I see that I have channeled the users into doing things my way.
Guess what! My way is not the only way.
When one commits to Revit or Archicad, there will be a lot more restrictions than anyone would ever find in my sad little macros. For large cookie cutter firms, those restrictions are probably a very good thing. For a creative small diversified client architect, the restrictions are likely more of a 401K black hole. If one can lose money on every project for several years, there will probably be a day when there is some profit in there. It won't be soon and it sure won't be before more money has been spent than was ever imagined going in.
Here is a question that probably has no real answer. If Revit/Archicad is so perfect for everything, why can't users offer their services on the market for independent work at a production level that blows away the traditional drafting type production?
Here in Houston, there are a few "firms" that offer their services. A bit of scrutiny usually finds that there are far too many flies in the ointment to allow for experimentation. Client contact is a touchy thing and with custom projects, the client could easily begin to wonder why the architect was needed at all when all of the real work was being done by the third party production person.
That said, what I see from your site, is that you seem to do many "one of" type projects. Because of that, my thoughts would be that you need the efficiency of custom detailing and ease of drafting that might not be easily available in either Archicad or Revit. Yes... I know that one can "draft" with them. One can also draw in the dirt with a pointed stick. Both work, but neither are particularly efficient at creating all of those details that must be needed for the type projects that you do.
I have rambled more than just a little bit, but I kept getting one thought or another as to why I continue to find myself being very happy with the flexibility of DataCAD (compared to the rigidity of the current BIM offerings).
I know that I make it sound totally negative. I just didn't see the return on investment (time and money) as even being close.
Good luck,
Woody

I run a mid size multi-disciplinary practice with a good proportion of work in high rise (mixed use and residential) and commercial projects. We also do a range of smaller projects down to houses, renovations and commercial fitouts. I've been using DataCAD since v4 and have also used AutoCAD (for about 10 years) and trialed Archicad and Revit and several other packages over the past 25 years or so. The BIM packages always seem to take the headlines and I think those using AutoCAD before migrating to a full BIM package would certainly see a difference in the way you have to work and what the output is.
What I like about DataCAD is that it works as a hybrid parametric system where you don't have to create an endless library of 'smart' objects to get a project done, which is the case with Revit and other full BIM systems. At the end of the day you hand over lines on paper to a builder. All the marketing hype that the BIM systems eliminate the clashes through 'smart' integration from all disciplines sounds good, but rarely happens this way in practice. I'm seeing that firms using BIM are becoming lazy in their designs and are allowing the software to design the building, ie. roof generator that traces the building outline. I often get comments from clients, contractors and some other architects about how good our drawings look and read. That's part user and part DataCAD in its ability to allow full and easy customization of all linework as you draw. It's not a time consuming process. DataCAD, with it's 'smart' symbols and 'smart' parametric objects can work similar to Revit.....but you still have to create your own library of walls, doors, windows etc. DataCAD's parametrics aren't as good as Revit, but they are being enhanced, though using the hybrid methodology you can still quickly create a 3D model to use in documentation. I don't see the need to model the entire building down to 3D screws and bolts! You have the flexibility in deciding how much of the 3D model you need and how much you will document using traditional 2D linework. I design all my projects in 3D using a mixture of DataCAD's 'smart' parametrics, solid objects and 2D/2.5D linework. DataCAD really flies when you combine the 'smart' parametrics with the GTV's,(gotoviews/bookmarks), Clipcubes, MSP's (multisheet plotting setup) and keyboard shortcuts. Another difference is that DataCAD creates a HLR (single image or linked to the section tool) for elevations and sections. If the section tool is used then these HLR's can be updated as the 3D model is changed. With the BIM systems, they use a live window on the plot sheet so if there's missing linework from a HLR then that's what you get. With DataCAD, you have the ability to draw or edit the saved image which offers much more flexibility.
All our staff have previously used other CAD systems, including Archicad and Revit. All enjoy using DataCAD and find it easy and productive. I don't think there is any 'perfect' system; each has good and not so good aspects. I spoke with an architect last year wanting to change from Revit due to a range of issues he had with poor linework, slowness, inaccuracies with snapping etc. I think at the end of the day you need to trial both to satisfy your own needs then make a decision. One other item worth mentioning is the very good support we get from DataCAD themselves who seem to take a hands on approach with its users addressing concerns and ideas, which I doubt would be on offer from Autodesk?
Hope this gives you something to think about.

Everything on this link was modeled and rendered using a combination of DataCAD, Sketchup and Photoshop during the calender year 2013. The detail is created at a level that we can actually pull 2D CAD files off our models and we often provide this service to our clients: http://www.flickr.com/photos/scottresid ... 214476545/

I'm 55 years old and couldn't tell you how to open a file in Autocad...I've never used it

Robert

I am stunned with admiration at the level of expertise exhibited in Robert's work.
Absolutely beautiful.
Thanks for the link.
Woody

I must reflect and echo Woody's comments. I have to admit that, at times, it scares and shocks me with what many of you are able to produce with my software and am jealous of the talent embodied in our user base. You folks constantly amaze me with the gifts that you possess!

Sincerely,
Dave

Thanks David! 17 years ago I made a career change and it's been a fun ride!
I've had a tremendous amount of encouragement and support from many on this this forum.

Here's to the next 17 years

Robert

Nice work Robert. I enjoy looking at traditional American architecture and how designs work within the "rules" for the particular style used....they often have a lot of character to them which seems missing in many contemporary styled houses. Good to see you enjoying what you do too!

...sounds like it worked out to be a good change in direction. I visited the US about half a dozen times about 5-8 years ago but didn't manage to get to the east/northern east coast....I wouldn't mind saying hello to the guys at DataCAD one day as well so maybe overdue for another trip....just got to find the time