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#12614 by Neil Blanchard
Thu Jul 06, 2006 10:08 pm
Greetings,

I figure that I will post the agenda for the July DBUG meeting here, and maybe if you are close enough to attend, then you'll come to the meeting!

Date: Thursday, July 13, 2006
Time: 6:00 p.m.
Location: Signature Architects, Inc.
150 Coolidge Road (Route 62)
Suite 250
Berlin, MA 01503
(directions below)
Awesome Pizza for $5 Donation
Complimentary Beer, too!

Please RSVP to Neil at SignatureArchitects dot com
or call (978) 562-1661 ext 225



Gathering, Food & Drink and general schmoozing as per usual!
I'm hoping to get a head count, so I can order enough pizza!

Introductions & Announcements
What is your favorite obscure DataCAD tool? There's going to be a quiz!

:arrow: Basic Lesson: Text Scale, the ins and outs of Plot Scale and GTV's
by Manny Snyderman
What does Text Scale do for me, how does it work, and what does it have to do with GoTo Views?

:arrow: Further Exploration: What's new in DataCAD 12?
by Mark Madura
I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say that we are looking forward to v12, and we are eager to learn as much as possible about it. This will be our third viewing, and the more we see, the more questions we have about it! Come and see what the good folks at DataCAD LLC are working on.

:arrow: Advanced lesson: MultiScale Plotting and Xref's – Complimetary or Redundant? (...and maybe a little bit about hardware, too... ;-)
by Neil Blanchard
These are some of DataCAD's most powerful and flexible tools, and there are a number of ways to use them to help produce the construction documents that are the “bread and butter” of our business.




:arrow: Directions to Signature Architects, Inc.:

Coolidge Road which is Route 62 runs east and west through Hudson and Berlin MA, and our office is just east of the intersection with Route 495; right on the line between Hudson & Berlin.

It is Exit 26 off of Rt. 495 -- if you are coming from points South (like the Mass Pike), or if you are coming from the North – at the end of the exit ramp you will be taking a Right turn.

From Rt 495 South, you will drive under Rt 495, and just a few 100 yards beyond the exit ramp from Rt 495 North, on the right side (just opposite the gas station), you'll see the office building at 150 Coolidge Road.

Go towards the back of the parking lot, and use Entrance #3, and come upstairs, and our office door is to the left.

Image
Image
#12722 by Neil Blanchard
Tue Jul 11, 2006 3:09 pm
MultiScale Plotting & XRef's
Complimentary or Redundant?

In a nutshell, what I am going to talk about is the methods that I use to draw and coordinate a building, using both MSP and XRef's, so that it is accurate in all dimensions. Hopefully, this is the function that any parametric 3D tools in DataCAD 12 will take on! But for now, we can use stacked plans, MSP, and XRef's, and well disciplined drafting, too. :)

How do MSP and XRef's actually work? Here are some of the salient points:

MSP is a “virtual” sheet of paper, on which you can place “Details”, each at various scales. A “Detail” is anything you place on the sheet, including the border, and they are quite similar to GTV's. Each MSP sheet is “remembered” within the file.

You should always check to see that the Plotter/Settings is correct before placing a detail. You can use the Multi-layout/Layout button to place the entities that are currently on the main drawing screen (that you last saw before you opened the Print/Plot menu); OR, you can open the Multi-layout/GoTo View menu to select the GTV you want to place. If you have the right settings, it will “come in” at the correct scale – but if not, you need to use the Page Up button to a go to a smaller the scale (think: you are moving up and away, so the detail looks smaller), or the Page Down button to go to a larger scale.

You can place a Detail by the Center of it's extents (which is the default), OR, you can use the Arrow keys to change the insertion point to any of the nine points of the extents (top left, top center, top right, etc.), OR, you can pick a custom insertion point:

F3 Ins. Point will show a static view of the detail, and you should center-snap to the point that you want to use. This point will be “remembered” so you can move the detail w/o reselecting the insertion point.

Usually, after you have chosen an insertion point, you will want to also use F4 Snap To Divs, and also, you might want to adjust the number of X and Y divisions in the grid. Note: if you have an odd number of divisions in either X or Y, you will not be able to “snap” to the center of the sheet – which is how I insert the Border “detail”. This is how you can align things precisely within an MSP sheet.

After you place each Detail, you must name it (and you are limited to only 8 characters, unfortunately). After you place a detail, you can move it: just select the button with it's name on it, and reposition it and click the left button (or click the right button to let it go back to it's current position).

Other points to note: Detail/Update, Detail/Layer Toggle, etc.

Cheap Trick: Instead of using the mouse to select a detail to move, leave the cursor in place and use the Function button, so that you can use the current position as a visual reference, and you can more easily adjust the position.

Cheap Trick: If need be, you can use any MSP detail as a GTV by selecting Multi-layout/Details/Make Current – and then you can Save (or Update) a GTV.

MSP Strengths
:arrow: Easier to work at different scales (the raison d'être of MSP!). You can use enlarged XRef's to do this, but you have to use non-associative dimensions, which is hardly optimal.

:arrow: Less demanding of your computer hardware while drawing.

:arrow: Lets you take full advantage of Text Scale, to set all dimension and text sizes “automatically.”
:arrow: Batch Plotting is much easier

:arrow: Used with a Clip Cube, and additional layers, you can “reuse” critical portions of your drawings, avoiding duplicate drafting, simplifying revisions as well.

:arrow: Makes it much easier to “stack” plans and still plot them on separate sheets.

:arrow: Don't need Refreshing for drafting changes.

:arrow: You can use just one version of your project border -- one place to change the title and the date! I always use it at 12” (full) scale, which makes it easy to set up.

MSP Challenges
:arrow: Layout is on a “virtual” sheet of paper, which is dependent on the driver settings, and some plotter/printer drivers are less than perfect.

:arrow: The WYSIWYG sheet is only available using the Plot Preview

:arrow: Getting details precisely aligned requires you to set up a grid for snapping to.
:arrow: Export MSP sheets to DWG will have to wait for DataCAD v12.

:arrow: You have to use additional lines, hatching, etc., to change the way it plots; since you can only use one Pen Table per file.

:arrow: Layer changes require you to manually adjust each affected MSP Detail.

************
XRef's are based on a temporary copy of a drawing file. In v10, there is a separate copy of the DC5 for each and every XRef and for each nested XRef that it includes. In v11, each duplicate XRef “reuses” the first copy. These copies need to be Refreshed if and when the original file is changed and saved. I have two custom Control-key shortcuts (by editing the Support Files/DcadWin.MNU file): Control-A saves all the open drawings at once, and Control-F refreshes all the XRef's in the active drawing.

You will need to use the Reference File Manager (RFM from here on) for toggling on/off layers, or to change Highlighting, or to use Repath/Redefine. The easiest way to open the RFM and have the appropriate XRef selected, is to point the cursor at the XRef, hold down the Control key, and right-click, and select XRef Tools/RFM from the pop up menu.

Control-Right Click is also great for quickly getting to all the commonly used functions related to XRef's. One of the most useful of these is to turn or or change the X-Clip Cube feature.

Cheap Trick: Set up “XRef” GTV's within each file (usually with all the dims and notes turned off, for example), that you know you will be using as an XRef – this makes it much faster to insert the view that you need for each XRef.

Cheap Trick: When inserting a self-XRef, be sure to toggle the Open RFM button on, before placing the XRef, so that you can get the GTV that you want to use – so that you can avoid having your mind bent! :-D

XRef Strengths
:arrow: Allows you to see/use/plot all or part of one drawing inside of another file – this is the basic purpose of XRef's!

:arrow: Exports to DWG!

:arrow: DataCAD lets you set up a Self-XRef (though these will not export to DWG – you'll have to turn these into “regular” XRef's.

:arrow: X-Clipping lets you draw outside the XCC itself, whereas 3D Clip Cubes do not.
:arrow: Allows you to “stack” plans from separate files, and you can export these to DWG.

:arrow: Highlighting is available to change how something plots, though it has to be one color and/or one linetype.

:arrow: You can set up your sheets in a WYSIWYG, with all object snapping features available.

XRef Challenges
:arrow: If you use a lot of XRef's, especially with Nesting turned on (which it always is by default!), your hardware and/or the network will get very slow opening, saving, and printing. The limits will depend mostly on how much RAM you have, and also how fast the CPU is. Eliminating Nesting (which is on by default) is the best way to keep things as fast as possible. V11 is much faster than v10, since it uses one copy of each Temporary file.

:arrow: Must be Refreshed to show changes, though this happens each time you open the file containing the XRef.

:arrow: Forces you to have one sheet per file, if you want to use Batch Plotting – and it is harder to use this from “outside” the file.
#12723 by MtnArch
Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:34 pm
Neil -

Your last point under Xref's - why does it force you to only have one sheet per file? Is it only due to Batch Plotting?
#12724 by joshhuggins
Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:38 pm
Looks great Neil :!: I can't wait to "see" the presentation :wink: I don't want to sound like a "Xrefs only" proponent, cause I really want to learn what I'm missing from MSP's, but a few items I found that were not quite right and I have a few questions too...

Neil Blanchard wrote:MSP Strengths
:arrow: Easier to work at different scales (the raison d'être of MSP!). You can use enlarged XRef's to do this, but you have to use non-associative dimensions, which is hardly optimal.
You can use associative dimensions for enlarged xrefs, you just do your dimensioning in the plan your xrefing and set your xref to have those layers on.

Neil Blanchard wrote::arrow: Batch Plotting is much easier
Easier than what? :wink: Using only GTVs is easier than using GTVs & MSPs IMHO. We have our plans setup using the one plan method (which I know is not feasible for all working environments), and each GTV represents one drawing sheet, and the GTV's are in the order they are to be plotted in (for print shop order ease and a web application). I haven't found a easy way to batch plot and have MSP sheets in mixed in the order. They always print after all the GTV's have. I'm I missing something here maybe?

Neil Blanchard wrote::arrow: Used with a Clip Cube, and additional layers, you can “reuse” critical portions of your drawings, avoiding duplicate drafting, simplifying revisions as well.
Same with xrefs right?

Neil Blanchard wrote::arrow: Makes it much easier to “stack” plans and still plot them on separate sheets....

:arrow: You can use just one version of your project border -- one place to change the title and the date! I always use it at 12” (full) scale, which makes it easy to set up.
No problems doing this now without using Xrefs or MSP's.

Neil Blanchard wrote::arrow: Layer changes require you to manually adjust each affected MSP Detail.
I did not know this. This would almost be a deal breaker for me. What happens when you change a layer name or position?

Neil Blanchard wrote:XRef's are based on a temporary copy of a drawing file. In v10, there is a separate copy of the DC5 for each and every XRef and for each nested XRef that it includes. In v11, each duplicate XRef “reuses” the first copy. These copies need to be Refreshed if and when the original file is changed and saved. I have two custom Control-key shortcuts (by editing the Support Files/DcadWin.MNU file): Control-A saves all the open drawings at once, and Control-F refreshes all the XRef's in the active drawing.
Another good benefit of using the single file method as you are usually only self referencing the one file you are currently in and updates only require a quick regen,(when the dcadwin.ini file has the following code:Requires latest patch
Code: Select all[xrefs]
XRefs Auto-Refresh on Regen=True
They are also automatically updated when switching between GTV's.

Neil Blanchard wrote::arrow: Forces you to have one sheet per file, if you want to use Batch Plotting – and it is harder to use this from “outside” the file.
No way man! Maybe if you were wanting to print a whole plan from an xref, but why would ya do that instead of printing from the plan your xrefing? Here in our office we use xrefs as individual referances, not to re-create complete sheets.

As always thanks for enlightening us :!:
#12727 by Neil Blanchard
Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:35 pm
Hello Alan,

MtnArch wrote:Your last point under Xref's - why does it force you to only have one sheet per file? Is it only due to Batch Plotting?


Yes, essentially -- that and you would have to do a QuickLayout for each GTV/sheet? If they are in separate files, then you don't have to redo the QuickLayout each time, right? (Or do you?)

Even if I only have one scale, I tend to use MSP, if only to avoid having to do QuickLayout for any particular sheet.
#12729 by MtnArch
Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:52 pm
Thanks, Neil.

I'm with Josh on this - I can't wait to see the video of the meeting! I'm sure alot of what you are talking about will make sense once I see it - I learn better via hands-on than by books!
#12730 by Neil Blanchard
Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:59 pm
Hi Josh,

You can use associative dimensions for enlarged xrefs, you just do your dimensioning in the plan your xrefing and set your xref to have those layers on.


Okay, but if you are then enlarging the XRef, it seems like you would have to do some back-handsprings to figure out the size of the text and the dim settings; since you are creating them at one scale, and then enlarging them as the XRef? This would probably be clearer, if I tried it -- but using MSP is so simple and direct, I'm not sure why...

I did not know this. This would almost be a deal breaker for me. What happens when you change a layer name or position?


Neither of those types of changes affect MSP -- it is when you add a new layer, or need to toogle off a layer, that I am refering to. Actually, I have been asking for a link between GTV's and MSP details, where you can just hit the Update button, and all the MSP Details that were based on a GTV -- just get updated all at once.

If there was a permenent link, I think that would also be fine -- the only mishap might be that someone else might update the GTV (who didn't realize what they were doing) and that would (possibly) mess up the MSP.

I'm missing how it is possible to produce multiple sheets from one file, using one border -- at different scales, without using MSP? Or XRef's? Hmmm, what am I missing?

Used with a Clip Cube, and additional layers, you can “reuse” critical portions of your drawings, avoiding duplicate drafting, simplifying revisions as well.
Same with xrefs right?


Indeed, and you get the added improvement of being able to draw outside the XCC. I'm just saying that there are things that are better handled by MSP, and other things that are better handled by XRef's. They each have their place, and yes, there is a lot of overlap, too.
#12733 by joshhuggins
Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:59 am
Neil Blanchard wrote:Okay, but if you are then enlarging the XRef, it seems like you would have to do some back-handsprings to figure out the size of the text and the dim settings
You got me there. I have a cheater toolbar that changes my text/dim sizes for me, but for the average person your right it would be a pain without the toolbar.

I'm missing how it is possible to produce multiple sheets from one file, using one border -- at different scales, without using MSP? Or XRef's? Hmmm, what am I missing?
All of our GTV's are lined up over each other at the drawing's origin. The Quick layout is done once in the file, and is also set to the origin which takes care of Alan's question of layout alignment. The GTV's sets the plot scale for each sheet. And yes we do use an xref for our border, I was more talking more about being able to stack plans and being able to plot them at different scales using GTV's only without the use of xrefs or MSP.

Indeed, and you get the added improvement of being able to draw outside the XCC. I'm just saying that there are things that are better handled by MSP, and other things that are better handled by XRef's. They each have their place, and yes, there is a lot of overlap, too.
Your right, I just wish that MSP were a little more user friendly. I'd guess my biggest hurdle is it seems like we pan around our regular drawing sheets, and drop symbols and such onto the plan, enlarging as we need to with such ease. I don't see any method this simple and obvious in the MSP layout area and I think that's what I'm expecting. Click! (Insert 20 mins of play time here) I think I just figured them out... While I now understand how they work now, I also now see what I think will keep me from wanting to use them (for right now) :( It's late now, but I think I finally figured the methodology out for the elusive MSP's! I have a whole slew of questions and ideas now oy! The Datacad Alpha team should have got that beta out sooner, my wish list just went off the charts! Thanks for getting those brain neurons firing Neil! Time for bed. Alan once the video's rollin' from the east coast, maybe I can add this to the stuff to the list for the next meeting whenever that will be :?: :wink:
Image (Josh dreams of world domination and MSP sheets)
#12761 by Steve Baldwin
Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:24 am
Let me start by saying that I am very much a fan of the x-ref method.

MSP Strengths
Easier to work at different scales (the raison d'être of MSP!). You can use enlarged XRef's to do this, but you have to use non-associative dimensions, which is hardly optimal.

Uh ... not sure what is happening. I have never needed to use non-associateve dimensions for the x-refs.

Used with a Clip Cube, and additional layers, you can “reuse” critical portions of your drawings, avoiding duplicate drafting, simplifying revisions as well.

Same with the x-ref/x-clip method ... and you can move x-clips around way more controlably.

You can use just one version of your project border -- one place to change the title and the date! I always use it at 12” (full) scale, which makes it easy to set up.

Again, same with x-refs. I have a separate titleblock file, also at full scale.

if you are then enlarging the XRef, it seems like you would have to do some back-handsprings to figure out the size of the text and the dim settings; since you are creating them at one scale, and then enlarging them as the XRef? This would probably be clearer, if I tried it -- but using MSP is so simple and direct, I'm not sure why...

Like everything in DataCad, the real information (walls, doors, etc.) is drawn real size, the text/dims are scale specific. If you have a detail, floor plan enlargement, etc., you add text/dims for the final plotted scale. You have to know in advance what scale you plan to plot at in order to add the text/dims for that detail or enlargement ... as you have always needed to know, even before MSP and x-refs.

---

Here is the way I use x-refs for my multi-scale needs...

I keep everything for a particular scale in their own file. For example, all of my 3/4"=1'-0" details have their own file, 1-1/2"=1'-0" details have their own file, etc. For floor plan enlargements, I use x-refs and x-clips to mask out what I don't need ... like for restroom enlargements. If I want to put some details on the floor plan sheet, for example, I x-ref them in, put them on an "X-refs" layer, and enlarge or reduce them as required. For enlarged plans, I have my enlargement sheet(s) set up for the enlargement scale (typically 1/4"=1'-0"), insert an x-ref of the overall floor plan (typically 1/8"=1'-0"), enlarge the x-ref per the 1/4"=1'-0" sheet, x-clip the area to be detailed, then add my text and dims.

Typically, for my "details" in the scale-specific detail files, I have each detail on their own, ONE layer (from the days of having symbols that couldn't deal with multiple layers) which I can x-ref into other files (like the floor plan), enlarge as required, copy it for as many details are in the file, use the x-ref manager to turn on only one detail layer per copy, and easily arrange them for that sheet. Any editing to those details are done in their scale-specific file, which of course will then be up-to-date in whatever other files they are x-reffed to.

As far as lining things up ... I demand "exact", not "close"! It seems that every time that I read info on MSP procedures, there are still glitches such as this that I find unacceptable.

My system, in my opinion, works perfectly ... and is better tuned to an office environment where multiple people have to work on a project at the same time. You can't do that if everything is in one file. Personally, I really don't ever forsee converting to MSP.
#44801 by Neil Blanchard
Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:46 am
Hi folks,

I've finished typing up the outline handout for tonight's meeting and I might as well post it, so anybody can make use of it.

*************

Using Symbols in DataCAD

Importance of Symbols in DataCAD:

1.File size and standard procedure.
2.Consistent construction documents.
a. fonts
b. line weights
c. symbol size (including the use of symbol scale)

Use of symbols in DataCAD:

1.Cross referencing
2.In place of external reference files
3.Consultants/Engineers
a. exporting MSP layouts to symbols

Using the symbol browser:

1.Saving/loading symbols
2.Naming symbols and directories

Using DataCAD on a Mac
Why: to minimize the problems of running a Windows computer (viruses and malware and Registry issues, etc.). Conversely, to take advantage of better designed hardware and OS.

Windows is still part of the picture – but since you are less dependent on it to remain stable; if problems arise, you can just reset Windows back to a clean installation.

How: Two methods are possible – you need a copy of Windows (XP/Vista) for either one:
1.Use BootCamp to install Windows; and choose which one you boot to with the Option key.
2.Use VMware Fusion or Parallels Desktop to install Windows; and boot within a virtual environment in OSX without rebooting.
I use VMware and WinXP Pro – you need to use a “full” version of Windows (an “upgrade” version will not work). Key settings to getting DataCAD to run normally include:
1.In the Apple/System Preferences/Keyboard/Keyboard you must toggle on the “Use all F1, F2 etc. keys as standard function keys” and in /Keyboard Shortcuts/Exposé & Spaces toggle off Exposé.
2.You need at least 4GB of RAM in the system to share between Mac OSX and Windows – probably a 2GB/2GB split.
3.Install VMware Tools to get 3D graphics support and full mouse support.
4.You still have to install antivirus and software firewall – McAfee SecurityCenter 1 year license comes with VMware.

The other main thing you need to know about is the “virtual network” that VMware sets up between OSX and Windows – which lets you get at all the data files from either “side”. And more importantly, it lets you use Time Machine (built in to OSX) to back it up; along with everything else in the system.

Using Self-References in DataCAD

Self-references is a much more accurate name for what are “officially” called self-XReference (which is contradictory).

Think of self-references as symbols that are automatically updated and refreshed. They actually function better than XRef's in this regard; which only update/refresh when you open the file, or if/when you do it manually.

There are (at least) 3 ways to use self-references:
1.To stack floor plans that are not able to be moved and/or to avoid having to rename all the layers.
2.To get a very useful “demolition” plan (which can work as an XRef or self-reference).
3.To generate plan details that are accurate, without drafting anything more than once.

The major steps I take in preparation for making a self-reference (or and XRef):
1.Make a GTV of what I want to reference.
2.Make a new layer for the reference to be on; and so it can be locked if necessary.
3.Toggle on “Open RFM” before inserting the reference, and then after placing it, I can toggle on the GTV that I have set up.

***********

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