Use this forum to ask questions about DataCAD 22 and DataCAD LT 22.
#80620 by CSutter
Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:47 pm
Our office has been using DataCAD since the .dc3 days, quite some time. It has served us well and continues to do so, for the most part. Our firm has changed hands over the past few years and the present leadership wants to be able to use BIM, most of the Federal and some of the State work we do is requiring it. So, the suggested solution is to start using different software, REVIT. I'm told it is the go to program for BIM, for 3D modeling, etc. I'm not wild about switching, but the consensus is that DataCAD doesn't play well with BIM, and has limitations with 3D modeling. I don't know, as we have done 99% of our working drawings in 2D using simple symbols and imported (dwg/dxf) templates/symbols as needed. 3D has been handled with SketchUp thus far with some added rendering in Photoshop.

I want some input from other users please, can DataCAD do BIM? What are your experiences and opinions. Personally I dislike BIM as we get proprietary product models that are enormous, slow, and often too complex for working drawings, and I don't like being in 3D all the time (is that the case with BIM?). The idea of working in 3D to develop models while working out programs, plans, sections all at once does have an appeal, but seams overly complex to me for most projects. Though I am seeing more and more miniscule projects doing full blown renderings and even animation.

Enlighten me please.
#80621 by joshhuggins
Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:33 pm
Will give my quick 1 cent.

CSutter wrote:but the consensus is that DataCAD doesn't play well with BIM, . . . can DataCAD do BIM?
Short answer is no. There is currently no interoperability with any of the BIM software formats. I would not plan on using Datacad at all along side of any BIM system unless you are using Datacad to quickly output 2D DWG info to use as a base to build off of.

CSutter wrote:. . . most of the Federal and some of the State work we do is requiring it.
What exactly are they requiring? Are you tasked with providing a final product in a specific file format but are allowed to work how you want in order to reach that final goal? Or are you needing to work in tandem with other agencies or associates and interoperate with others throughout the entirety of the project?
If the bulk of your future work is truly going to be mandated by these Federal and State contracts that require BIM based workflows, I would look into heading that way instead of trying to shoehorn something in.

I worked for a short time with a firm that provided on-base military contracted homes, civic centers, and office facilities. They had several architects & planners and a drafting staff of about 20 fully dedicated to the projects. They were an Autocad based firm but were making the transition to Revit while I was there. During my term there, we were working heavily on creating and building all of the BIM resources and nesting needed to support the core of the BIM projects. It was a major undertaking. I left there after several months because the work environment was just not a healthy one. Fast forward about 5 years and that firm that had about a 20+ year history, had since been dissolved. I ran into a co-worker from that firm that was the #2 in the BIM transition team and who I worked along side with. They said that it was basically the loss in productivity there was not standards between the different projects on different bases among the different armed services. They were constantly having to re-tool their standards to meet the requirements and adjust as projects moved forward. It just broke their back. And I would say they had a pretty sharp group of people working there so it was not from a lack of competent employees.

All that said, I would suggest if you can get resources from some of your federal or state connections and have them send you their standard libraries, previous project files and samples that you can pull and build your own libraries from, that would be a HUGE help. Don't start from scratch if you don't have to. BIM is so information and data heavy and everything needs to be built first. It will always need to be adjusted and tweaked. Do not plan on starting a project and building the systems as you go. That will end in disaster. With CAD, you can kind of roll with things in that fashion, but not with BIM so much IMHO. I would continue to work in your current fashion if you can in the short-term and setup a small team to start your BIM build out. If you can hire a known BIM talent in your area, even if just part time, to help you get things built out, that would be a good start.
#80627 by caddboss
Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:17 am
If you are still not sure about the switch to other software and which one could it be, there is a very interesting option available. It is called SPIRIT. Spirit's life was very close to DataCAD once, at their very beginning. Spirit was based on Microtecture-Cadkey-DataCAD program and its core part still reminds the old Spirit-DataCAD common era even today. Of course, after the ver 4.02 back in 1992, Spirit had differentiate itself, integrating several serious ZAC building elements routines (such as walls, openings, stars, roofs, columns etc.) and automatic object-oriented way of creating building models and documentation. Now, it is fully compatible with BIM and IFC standards, retaining the basic DataCAD's keyboard shortcuts mostly untouched though. I think that for an experienced DataCAD user the transition to SPIRIT is more than easy task with almost flat learning curve. My 2 eurocents.

P.S.
I am using Spirit continuously since 1989, version 3.6. When that version started, it said it contains Cadkey-DataCAD proprietary parts in the splash screen text. That mans that both programs are siblings in fact :)
#82179 by Chris
Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:36 am
Great Title, and responses.

Back in the day, I went to a CAD Expo in Wash. D.C. with one of the firm partners to pick the new (first) office CAD system. We were told that when the expo opened the building "would lean towards ACAD", that was the market share they had even then. Of course, we were sucked into the ACAD vortex and I think every question we asked was met with something like "ACAD doesn't do that specifically, but there is a 3rd party vendor here somewhere that has an app for that". Very disappointing. We looked at Microtecture at the time and it was brilliant (the tag, software written by architects for architects was a great hook), but ultimately the price was too cheap comparatively to sway the final selection. CadKey won the award primarily due to the network management component they had integrated. The Firm ended up hiring a Cad Manager right out of CadKey to oversee the then two fully networked stations that ended up costing 100k per seat. 1 year later that manager tried to ransom the firm for an ownership position. I learned a LOT on the sidelines of this issue and when I went out on my own in 1989 I went with Microtecture (aka: DataCad) and never looked back. ACAD only looked out for its own interest and never the interest of the user, they spent more time protecting (and engineering) their proprietary rights then supporting users, BIM and REVIT are ALL of that on steroids. The best benefit I have heard about BIM is working in groups and collision avoidance parametrics which is really only beneficial to highly complex projects like hospitals, labs and the like.

CAD, BIM and AI have all certainly morphed the industry and unless you are just entering this industry and LOVE it, ride the wave on the way out and stay away from the bells and whistles. AI will whittle away what is left of this industry in which we work within the next decade.
#82181 by MtnArch
Wed Apr 26, 2023 3:16 pm
Furthering the reminiscing - when I worked for another architect in the late 1980's he decided we needed to get a CAD system, and since I was more gung-ho about computers than anyone else in the firm it was left up to me to put together the system (computer, plotter, AND software).

I spoke with an Acad/Dcad dealer in the SF Bay Area (really knowledgeable and honest woman dealer named Jody), and she said it really came to down this: If you want your drawings to look like your hand-drawn plans you'll use Dcad, and if you want to import/work with consultant engineer drawings you'll use Acad. The boss decided it was more important to work with the engineers than to have our drawings look more architectural and we went with an Acad seat.

A side note about that architect: he bought more computers and simply pirated his Acad single seat on the other 5 computers. After I left to be an in-house architect for a luxury custom home builder I received a call from an Acad attorney asking about the architect's use. I told the truth that when I left he hadn't bought additional licenses; speaking with the dealer later about it she stated that the architect had told Acad to go pound sand and (supposedly) bought all Dcad licenses instead!
#82183 by Mark Bell
Thu Apr 27, 2023 4:45 am
Just to add to the comments already posted, I think the main issue in your situation is to clearly understand what the criteria is for the government work that is tendered. If it's anything like over here, government tenders most often require full BIM, which essentially is a full parametric model, created to the relevant standards, of the whole site and building(s) including 3D skirtings, cornices and everything in between, plus, all the sub-consultant disciplines coordinated in 2D/3D into the BIM model. In addition, 3D renders, fly-throughs/animations and VR is also needed. The BIM model is then handed over to the government at the end of the project.

Some items to consider based on my own experiences and observations:

1. The last time I looked, the standard Revit package annual renewal in Australia was about 10-11 times the cost of a full DataCAD licence renewal with subscription included, per year., so you'll need to do the maths on what the extra outlay per annum is going to be for your office.

2. If your office doesn't have much 3D experience then you will be in for a steep learning curve as the methodology in using BIM is very different to standard 2D CAD. My observations are offices that say used Acad and transitioned to Revit ended up having to employ more staff due to the increased work load in creating a full BIM model and drawings. With larger projects, it's also likely you will need to employ a BIM Manager to coordinate the model files and staff. Expect the model files to be large in comparison to AEC files so you may have to upgrade some of your computers.

3. There's a huge amount of information on the web including videos and tutorials though again, from observation it's likely you will need to pay for someone experienced to train your staff on how to use Revit and get you started sooner. Your firm will need to factor in a downturn in productivity as you switch across. As with all parametric software, a good object library is essential to improve efficiency. You will have to recreate or convert or source new details (Symbol library) and customise the standard Revit to the way your office wants so your work doesn't look like 1980's Acad drawings.

4. According to Autodesk, Revit has come a long way since its first release and has addressed much of the early criticisms about its quality of drawing output. It's worth downloading some Online DA submissions and tenders to see the level of presentation and drawings from other offices using Revit and compare to the standard your office produces so you can gauge its value. My own observations in the region I work in, is the quality has dropped. A lot of offices using Revit here also seem to output raster drawings to PDF instead of vector drawings so they pixelate and often look pale with faint line work. Revit is capable of producing good quality drawings, but it will need someone experienced to train you on how to achieve this or invest time in online videos and tutorials. Most product suppliers now provide Revit files making it easy to load into the model file and build an object library.

5. Several years ago in my old city where I had my last office, two directors in a well known large office retired and as part of their blog to the AiA commented that the switch from using Acad to Revit didn't live up to the hype they were sold and there were little to no recognisable cost benefits achieved. You need to do your own homework on the pros and cons and not just accept the marketing hype from the software vendors. Download a free trial version and work on a project to see how it preforms. Revit is a powerful software with a lot of features, but is also quite rigid in how it must be used, especially when compared to how flexible and easy DataCAD is. which can also create a 2D-3D building model.

5. Getting back to your question on DataCAD and BIM. DataCAD adopts some of the features of BIM, such as 2D-3D smart parametric entities (walls, doors, windows) and to a point, smart symbols but doesn't export to IFC (BIM version of DXF) so a 2D-3D DataCAD model would translate as 3D solid entities (polygons) with no BIM 'intelligence' attached. I've been using DataCAD since v4 back in '91-'92 and our first project was a hospital which was modelled in 3D to provide a presentation perspective, elevations and sections done the old way using slabs and walls and the AEC_Modl macro for doors and windows, 'traced' over the 2D plan drawings. When DataCAD 10 Plus came out around 2000 (DataCAD 10 combined with Spirit) it allowed true 2D-3D parametric design and documentation. I've designed hundreds of projects over the last 30 years, mainly commercial buildings and most of them using DataCAD's 2D-3D smart entities to create a parametric building model to extract elevations, sections, plan and section details to work up further in 2D as well as maintaining current plan drawings working with smart walls not offset 2D lines. It's also used heavily for presentation work and throughout the design phase all the way through to documentation. No BIM manager needed! You need to weigh up the perceived value in chasing government work, competing with other firms that are already setup with Revit and changing your whole office work flow to meet this new paradigm. It might also be worth exploring or expanding to include niche markets in the type of work you do allowing the office to retain the software you already know how to use well? You also need to enjoy what you do.
#82199 by ORWoody
Tue May 02, 2023 2:03 am
Excellent advice from Mark... although, he was preaching to the choir as far as I was concerned. I've watched as more than one office attempted to make the transition, only to discover that they missed deadlines, regularly ended up having to redo the project in their original software, or broke the bank because of their decreased productivity. I had one architect tell me that he could estimate his cost of labor/production almost exactly tripled with Revit. That didn't even take the increased cost of the software into consideration.

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