Post off topic threads here.
#65776 by DBrennfoerder
Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:46 pm
Looking for input.

I have a client and told them they might expect to spend $85 to $95 per square foot out there in the boonies of fly-over country. They said a nearby facility similar to theirs was recently completed for nearly half that, so I asked if they could arrange a tour. I was wanting to be on the lookout for cheap materials and other short-cut methods to save money.

What I found was a brand new building that had just opened a month ago. This is a church, 85' x 85', 2 story, wood frame, with so many code violations that I could write a book. They got the plan free from a "big box" home supply store who required that they purchase all materials from there. This is an area where you hardly even need a plan on a napkin to start construction. The "construction documents" are two simple line drawings on 2-11 x 17 sheets.

There is one stair connecting the floors; the lower level is a walk-out on one wall. The other 3 walls are underground. The worst part is the "back" half of the basement where they ran a corridor back into the last 40'+, to a "T" intersection with another corridor that extends the full 85' side to side, except for mechanical rooms at the ends. So basically the configuration is a group of classrooms along the bottom of a "T" nearly 40' long, which connects to ends of the top of the "T", each 40'+ long. Besides being ridiculously long dead-ends, the door at the bottom of the "T" swings into the corridor instead of out of it. The upper floor has two similar dead-ends on the high side.

So, turn in the guy at the "big box" to the state arch board? Turn in the church to the local fire marshal? (as if he hadn't seen it already) Start a discussion with the church about how to resolve the situation and recommend they actually hire an architect this time? (Not me, don't think I want to touch it with a 10' pole). Ignore it? It probably won't burn down or kill anybody anyway.
#65777 by jerry.headley
Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:10 am
From your description, there are many code violations and how a building permit was issued, based on 2 sheets, by the local city or county building department is the 1st question needing a answer. How the building passed final inspection and was issued a Certificate of Occupancy is another question needing a answer. Next, the building is a church therefor it is classified as an Assembly Occupancy which would indicate the State Fire Marshal Office would have jurisdiction in the review/approval of the contract documents before a building permit can be issued by the local building department.

My opinion is that the State Architects Licensing Board be informed of the "box store" providing architectural and engineering design services. Report the Church to the State Fire Marshal Office NOT the local Fire Marshal as the State should have jurisdiction over this matter. Inform the Church, in writing, their facility has Building Code issues and they need to engage the services of a Licensed Architect to work with them on addressing and correcting the violations.

Since I sit on my State's Licensing Board, Tennessee, ethically you need to bring this facility to the appropriate State Licensing Board's and State Fire Marshal Office due to the Life, Safety, and Welfare issues of the people who will or use the facility.

Jerome M. Headley
Architect, Board Member
State of Tennessee Board of Architectural and Engineering Examiners
#65778 by DBrennfoerder
Thu Feb 05, 2015 8:44 am
Thanks for the info Jerry, and that is the direction I'm heading. But, as I mentioned, this is rural fly-over country. It is outside of city limits, thus no city compliance required. There is no county "planning commission" or other such department, thus no county compliance required. There is no state fire marshal, thus no state compliance required. I don't believe there is any entity that is operable that would be in a position to grant a certificate of occupancy.

However, I will check with the local fire department to see if they have any sort of review process that even looks at a church at any point in time.

I believe my only route here is the state statute that says basically, any building larger than 20,000 cubic feet (and other triggers) must have an architect. And, as an architect, my only guide (had I been hired) would be that the IBC says in essence, without a local governing authority, then use certain chapters of the IBC as a minimum level of performance. (I can't find that reference right now, but it's in there somewhere.)

The "big box" employee, or his employer, acted as architect in providing two unsigned, undated sheets to the church to build from. So they have a liability. The church is unaware of any state requirement. Out here in the boonies, when I call most small communities about a building permit, the response is something like, "All we need is the name of the project and $25".

I agree that this needs to go farther to be resolved.
#65783 by joshhuggins
Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:59 pm
DBrennfoerder wrote:Out here in the boonies, when I call most small communities about a building permit, the response is something like, "All we need is the name of the project and $25".
Dang that must be nice! :roll:
#65785 by Ted B
Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:33 pm
Some jurisdictions allow PE's to sign-off on buildings .. or al-least the structural/MPE parts .. for building permits. And if it has wood or steel trusses, the truss MFR's PE signs for them. The same with wood or metal pre-manufactured or component buildings.

As long as no-one in the loop called themselves an "Architect" they might not have contravened the State's Licensure laws, but they probably still need to address "life-safety" through the local or state Fire Marshall or state code-enforcement bureau. In Pennsylvania, which for decades half the local jurisdictions had no building code in-force, you still needed to go to Harrisburg for any non-1&2 family residential building for a life-safety sign-off under the NFPA Life-Safety Code; but they didn't look at construction or structural. The Architect's Standard of Care -- and the PE's -- was supposed to be the check on sub-par construction -- and documentation.

Here in NJ, the State's Code Enforcement still signs-off on all school, prison, or hospital/nursing home-work; and any Assembly/Retail uses where the local Fire Marshall isn't so-licensed.

By-contrast in NJ, you need an architect even for residential renovations if structural. Yet in Delaware, you can do ANYTHING residential up-to a 3-family building and not need an architect --- nor need to be an Architect if the designer, as long as you don't use the title "Architect". That's why all those Southern outfits like Bloodgood Associates can sell "plans" throughout the South and Midwest, and call themselves "Residential Designers". Their states don't consider it the "...practice of Architecture" for licensing purposes. And if they need a "design professional's seal", it's typically the (civil) PE who did the site-engineering and maybe structurally-designed the foundations or basement.

Definitely contact the State Architects Board -- and the State Fire-Marshall or his immediate superior agency. I would stop and make sure that you were on firm legal and professional ground before contacting the Church itself about "deficiencies", or you might be exposing yourself to expensive and ambiguous legal action.
#65786 by DBrennfoerder
Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:41 pm
Very good points, Ted, especially about being on firm legal ground before doing anything about it.

However, about whether or not the designer has called himself an architect: the state law says that anyone providing design for certain buildings (larger than duplex, etc.) IS providing architectural services, and must, by law, be a state registered architect. He doesn't have to call himself one, just to the activity.

But, in line with your statement, one who calls himself "architect" and is not, is subject to penalty, no matter if he has done any drawings or not.

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