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#77601 by pjdixit
Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:19 pm
I am curious to know if you tried modelo or a similar service? If so, which one? Do such service add value to your overall architectural workflow?

https://modelo.io/

Thank you!
#77605 by Mark Bell
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:46 am
I've heard of it, but haven't tried it. Generally, the less additional software to maintain, learn and use, the better the workflow, that's why we've put a lot of time in getting into DataCAD and pushing it to get the most out of it. All our modelling for 3D work is done in DataCAD (combination of smart entities and standard 3D entities) and then carried forward for renders/animation in other software such as Maxwell, with construction docs all done in DataCAD. The Object Viewer and your Sunshader is used a lot to view designs as they progress without the need to export to external visualisation software, and the quickness of switching back and forth helps the workflow. What would be good is a "universal" translator that imports a wide range of 3D formats from other platforms, especially where product manufacturer's have created models in formats that DataCAD isn't able to import directly.
If you're bored and twiddling your thumbs a suggestion would be to further develop the Sunshader, perhaps rename it SketchShader and add extra presentation features so it can be used more for the upfront early concept phase of a project.... :D
#77606 by pjdixit
Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:28 am
Thank you for your input, Mark!

Which 3D formats from product manufacturers you encounter often that are not supported by DataCAD for direct import?

I believe now I am in a position to attack one thing that eluded me in the past - generating real vector shadows that can be edited like regular polylines/line entities (Thanks to experience of working in unrelated field - developing 3D printing and CNC milling software). So instead of current method of generating raster images of shadows in the form of a Bitmap, you can get shadows on a given plane in the form of editable entities in DataCAD and can also be exported as Dxf/Dwg. I am not sure how big that pain point is and if it is worthwhile to pursue. So your input will be very valuable in that aspect.
#77607 by dhs
Mon Feb 17, 2020 2:23 pm
you can get shadows on a given plane in the form of editable entities in DataCAD and can also be exported as Dxf/Dwg

I believe there is already a product available that does that (Shadow macro). In fact I have just in the last week or so started to do some additional work to provide extra shadow functionality in my suite of macros.

Your efforts might be better spent developing something that does not already exist ?

Regards,
David H.
#77608 by pjdixit
Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:39 pm
dhShadow is an awesome macro. Thank you for making it available to DataCAD community, David Henderson!

Sun Shader already has pieces of code to generate shadow like dhShadow currently generates. However, what was eluding me was generating outline of shadows by performing boolean operations entities projected on the shadow plane.

Efficiency is going to be very important here. So I will be using some special data structures such as octree (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octree) and efficient polygon clipping algorithm (http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.88.3266&rep=rep1&type=pdf) to perform boolean operations efficiently on millions of polygons to generate shadow outlines instead of simply projecting all entities and its constituent triangles/polygons on a shadow plane. I believe it is a good candidate for multi-threading as well.

It will also work with all entities including Smart Entities.

I agree with you that it is better to not waste time on reinventing wheel. If I pursue it, I will try to fill the gaps in currently existing functionality. If interested, may be we can collaborate on that.
Last edited by pjdixit on Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#77609 by dhs
Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:38 pm
My original dhShadow macro (written in the 90's) had logic to produce a single outline. When I wrote the more recent Shadow macro I had lost the source code of the original (External Iomega Jazz Drive, floppy disks, and the HD of a PC that had not been powered up for a decade or so had all failed) and I did not re-develop the logic to produce the single outline at that time.

Last year I found an old CD backup, so I now have that original source code that processed the overall outline. This logic was pretty slow on the PCs of the 90s, but one user who is still using that original macro actually contacted me a little while ago to say that he had re-enabled the outline option and was pleasantly surprised how quickly it performed on today's PC! It certainly needs to process hundreds or even thousands of polygons, but I don't believe that a model used to analyse shadows needs to produce millions of polygons. My focus is more on analysis (e.g. finding the effects of a new structure on the sunshine amenity of existing areas or on other areas of the new structure itself).

It will also work with all entities including Smart Entities.

That is more problematic for me. Mark Madura told me a little while ago that the smart entities had not been exposed to DCAL for Delphi, but I have wondered from time to time if entity fields such as 'SuperData' may relate to those smart entities. At any rate there is no documentation or example to illustrate how to access or use smart entity data even if it is technically possible do so.

With your much more recent experience with the actual DataCAD source I expect that you have a good understanding of the internal workings of the smart entities, so you are probably far better equipped to access the smart entity data with a macro (if that is possible, or perhaps you can integrate it more closely into DataCAD). There are probably at least a few people who would very much appreciate that extra functionality that I am currently unable to provide.
#77610 by pjdixit
Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:17 pm
I am very sorry to hear about your data loss due to had drive failure, David! It must have sucked big time.

I recall that while working on Sun Shader we had to use some hacks to support smart entities. Fortunately for me, having access to DataCAD's source code and team helped a lot.

There are probably at least a few people who would very much appreciate that extra functionality that I am currently unable to provide.

I hope so too! If you know folks who might be interested please let me know. I would love to take in there input. I am planning to put together a quick n' dirty but functional prototype over the next few months as time permits. But to bring it to the level that can be released in public, economics of it has to work as well.
#77612 by Mark Bell
Tue Feb 18, 2020 10:37 pm
PJDixit wrote "Which 3D formats from product manufacturers you encounter often that are not supported by DataCAD for direct import?

I believe now I am in a position to attack one thing that eluded me in the past - generating real vector shadows that can be edited like regular polylines/line entities (Thanks to experience of working in unrelated field - developing 3D printing and CNC milling software). So instead of current method of generating raster images of shadows in the form of a Bitmap, you can get shadows on a given plane in the form of editable entities in DataCAD and can also be exported as Dxf/Dwg. I am not sure how big that pain point is and if it is worthwhile to pursue. So your input will be very valuable in that aspect.
"

The main ones are RVT, RFA from Revit (Autodesk), and FBX which is more 3D orientated. I think David has noted his DHShadow macro which already caters for vector shadows and your Sunshader produces raster so there's no real need to invest time into something that already has options available.

If we take a step backwards for a moment and look at some areas where DataCAD could be strengthened include:

1. Further development of the smart entities. These are a great feature with a lot of potential not being realised through a lack of progress. This includes further refinement of the existing wall, door and window managers as well as new features (Trim wall to surface, lock doors/windows into walls so they don't detach when walls are edited, easier curved walls, tapered walls, stepped walls, curtain walls, unique columns, stairs, parametric balustrading and fencing etc., contour search on smart entities, applied hatching to wall surfaces within wall types),

2. Improved Section Tool,

3. Door and Window Scheduler,

4. MSP Plot Sheet Manager that allows sheets to move up or down a drawing list similar to the Layer Manager to improve efficiency in reorganising sheet layouts,

5. Enhanced presentation features. This might be achieved through further development of Sunshader? Improve the image output so stray lines are no longer visible, add further visual effects, allow the shadow to be output as a separate alpha channel to it can be saved independently of the model image. This may allow the shadow then to be saved under the plan to add shadows. Similarly in creating elevations with shadows where the shadow can be saved out and placed under elevation line work for improved presentation. Competition between offices on submissions is always getting harder so being able to keep up allows DataCAD to maintain an edge. Most if not all submissions and document issue today is in PDF format. Currently DataCAD allows images to be imported and placed on a drawing and output to PDF. Add the ability to embed MP4 (or other codecs with audio) through MSP and output to PDF. Allow Sunshader to generate MP4 files of the sun's position animated for date/time. Allow Sunshader to generate basic animation through a project (updated ViewMaster ?) perhaps using a simple spline path. This then allows DataCAD users to include drawings, sketch images and a teaser animation for proposals, all done from DataCAD.

If you have a browse through the Wishlist on the Forum there's plenty of ideas and the above are some bigger items that come to mind that you may see merit with.
#77639 by Mark Bell
Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:05 pm
Hi Prasad,

Some other ideas if you're looking for something more independent:

1. Create a web-based viewer and/or an Adobe Reader viewer, of DataCAD 3D files (AEC or other existing export format?) allowing offices to email clients/contractors/consultants models for direct viewing inside their web browser or AR without the need to install specific software. Perhaps a cross between O2C and Sunshader comes to mind or there may already be something out there you can use and build on? DataCAD released a VRML Viewer years ago which showed a lot of promise and seemed ahead of its time so maybe this could be a starting point?
2. The browser/viewer would need to show 2D PDF or raster images/drawings as well as 3D models or part models allowing easy transfer of key design information to site or meetings perhaps through each office/user's cloud-based account for remote access? This would also allow tablets and even smart phones to be used.
There's lots of possibilities.
#77678 by pjdixit
Fri Feb 28, 2020 1:47 pm
Mark Bell wrote:Hi Prasad,

Some other ideas if you're looking for something more independent:

1. Create a web-based viewer and/or an Adobe Reader viewer, of DataCAD 3D files (AEC or other existing export format?) allowing offices to email clients/contractors/consultants models for direct viewing inside their web browser or AR without the need to install specific software. Perhaps a cross between O2C and Sunshader comes to mind or there may already be something out there you can use and build on? DataCAD released a VRML Viewer years ago which showed a lot of promise and seemed ahead of its time so maybe this could be a starting point?
2. The browser/viewer would need to show 2D PDF or raster images/drawings as well as 3D models or part models allowing easy transfer of key design information to site or meetings perhaps through each office/user's cloud-based account for remote access? This would also allow tablets and even smart phones to be used.
There's lots of possibilities.


Thank you for the suggestions, Mark Bell. Those ideas are certainly within reach and what I am inclined to pursue. Although, there needs to be enough interest and support from architectural community especially DataCAD users to make it a reality.
#77700 by Mark Bell
Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:02 pm
Hi Prasad,

I think if the software is open to a wide array of formats in addition to DataCAD it will cater for a bigger market share of prospective users and hopefully help pay the bills.

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